Author: Roger Engdahl and Susan Green

Nacogdoches, first few days

We are now at Xtreme Paint and Graphics. They have an apartment for folks who are here for stuff that is going to take awhile. The people who were here before us were having repairs done after a crash and as is not unusual, theirs is taking longer. We understand.

We have found several really nice areas for walking and will try to get out everyday. We had lunch today with four other Foretravel owners. They find out you are in town and that TX hospitality comes a running.

So we are staying in our coach at night for a few days. That is OK with us.  We are very comfortable. But they got started working today.

Repairing the damage done in September.

They just cut off everything they don’t want and make new parts and replace them.

They are replacing the headlights and the door over the generator. The driving lights in the generator cover are moving to the outer panels and they will be a license plate recess in the new door.

The front will look like this. (This is someone else’s coach.). This mod is a major and common upgrade to night time driving ability.

Cut out the tail lights.

New ones will look like this. Much brighter lights and the upper ones will be above the top of the Jeep and much easier to see from behind.

And we are changing the front step. Like this.

Two wider steps. This will be a nice safety improvement especially as we get older.

Probably will take another two weeks or so.

More later,

Roger and Susan

A Quick Trip To Portland

My sister and her huband, Bruce, live in Portland, OR.  The both went to a small college just west of Portland and have spent almost their entire married lives there.  They had two wonderful children, Eric and Sarah.  

Sarah died in a mountain backpacking accident 10 years ago at age 28.  She was deeply loved and dearly missed by so many people. Sadly, Eric died on December 6 at age 41. He had a very bad infection that settled in his heart. It also caused problems in his lungs and kidneys and worse, a severe stroke that did much damage.  After 8 days in a coma in ICU his heart failed and Eric died. Judy and Bruce and Eric’s wife, Cyndi, and their two kids, Victoria and Hunter were there with him. 
Eric always had a smile, a wise crack or two and a practical joke ready to go. He loved his family and his job at the Oregon Zoo where he was a Public Safety Officer.  He started at the Zoo when he was 19. 
He loved playing games, any games and was a seriously great Scrabble player.  I though I was pretty good and he would just wail on me. We will all miss him.
His memorial service was held at the Zoo. They set up the Ballroom for 350 and when the service started the seats were filled and a great many were standing. There were some great stories about Eric from the Zoo Director, from long time friends of Eric’s, from Judy and from Bruce.  A bag piper concluded the service in a traditional tribute to a departed Public Safety Officer.
Both Eric and Sarah were respected and loved.  They made a big difference in the lives of people they met every day. Their lives are are testament to the basic values and qualities learned from Judy and Bruce that they each built on in their own ways for themselves. They are not here with is anymore but will never be far away in our memories and hearts. Rejoicing in those memories reinforces them and helps Sarah and Eric live on.
Most of Bruce’s family is from northern California and a great many were there, way too many to remember names and faces after a single pass but there were many more opportunities.  The evening before the service about 25 showed up at Judy and Bruces for a casual supper.  After the service there were about 40 at friends Kimi and Andy’s house for a soup supper.  We were all there after Sarah’s service too. And then the next morning 30 showed up at a nearby restaurant for breakfast before everyone went one way or another.

   “The cutest little devil you will ever see.”

So we got to Houston, had our coach graciously kept safe by Ralph who answered the call from our friend Rudy, drove to the airport, flew to Portland, see above, flew to Houston, got to bed at 2:30AM and then drove to Nacogdoches, TX, stayed overnight at the Foretravel factory campground and are now at Xtreme Paint and Graphics for some repair work and some safety and beauty upgrades. While here we will stay in the coach a few nights and then into their free-of-charge apartment until the work is done.
We have found the Chilis restaurnt, the library, several walking trails, the grocery store and more. We have already run into folks we know or will know soon.  Lunches and dinners are being scheduled. The Foretravel family is an active and friendly bunch.
That’s where we have been for the past few days. I am really glad we went to support my sister Judy.  We are each the only family we have left.  I needed to be there.  She needed me to be there.
More later as the adventure continues.  Pictures too of the transformation at Xtreme.
Roger and Susan

We are off!

Time to go
Our original departure window was January 7-9.  An unexpected turn of events made it important that we be in Portland, OR on January 10.  So we moved our departure window up to January 4-5 and with help from very gracious friends in the Houston area we were able to find a place to park the coach for four nights, plugged in and in a secure area while we hopped a jet to Portland.
Kansas City, MO
Turns out that was probably a good thing.  Sunday morning the 4th was below zero when we got up. We were gone in an hour and a half heading south towards Kansas City, MO.
Best buds, ready to go.
The drive was uneventful, cold but clear skies, windy, some blowing snow but no drifting or packed snow on the roadway.
Southbound from (in) the living room.  
We made a pair of movable fans to help with first-thing-in-the-morning window frost.  They work quickly.  And in the summer will keep us cool.  We take turns driving, 100 miles or a couple hours seems good.
The other driver.
It really helps. We stopped just as the sun was setting on the outskirts of KC at Camp Walmart.  We went in for a few store laps, got some milk and back to the coach in time to see Downton Abbey. We are not entirely hooked on it but sort of want to see what happens.  The historical context is interesting.
Dennison, TX 
The next morning was much warmer than the prior morning but still in the 20’s.  We were quite comfy and warm.  Got up fairly early, had some coffee and breakfast, did our normal preflight checks, oil level, coolant level, tire pressures, lights, that sort of thing and were ready to go. Southbound towards Joplin.  Susan drove through Joplin and then west towards Oklahoma.  She pulled into a truck stop, into the big boy fuel lanes and we added 50 gallons of diesel. I think that was her first time doing that. No problem.  So the further south we went the warmer it got.  40°, 50° then 60°.  Nice.  We were going to stop in Atoka, TX at a Camp Walmart but it was a small Walmart and not easy to get in to so we went another 50 miles to a much bigger Walmart in Dennison TX about 50 miles north of Dallas.  
Camp Walmarts are ok, there is a store nearby, but often there are trucks and other stuff that makes noise.  This one had us sandwiched between semi’s that all seemed to leave about 5 AM.  
We got up and got going about 9 hoping to miss most of the Dallas traffic heading for an Army Corps of Engineering campground on a reservoir near Ennis, TX a short 120 mile drive.  We went right through downtown Dallas looking left and right for the Ewings.  Never saw them but there was construction, narrow lanes and lots of traffic.we perservered and made it to the COE campground in time for lunch.  50 amp hookups, water, quiet and almost deserted. $8/night.  60’s.  Shorts! Perfect.
Cleanish
We drained out all of the water lines and tanks, flushed everything out, flushed it again and then added about 40 gallons of water.  Then we hooked up the hose and washed the road grime off the coach and Jeep.  Not a perfect job but we got off the salt spray and rinsed out the wheel wells.  Perfect enough.  Actually looked pretty good. All of those chores took about three hours.  Then we walked for an hour or more around the campground, a nearby picnic area and a marina.  We made pizza for dinner, watched NCIS, read for a while and went to bed.
Houston
It was about a four hour drive to the east side of Houston where we had a place to park the coach.  Another fuel stop to fill up, the price is going down as we head south. There was a lot of construction heading into Houston.  They just cram four lanes into three and have at it.  But no problem, right towards downtown Houston, around on I610 and the east in I10 to the far side of Baytown.  Houston is huge!
We parked at Ralph’s place on a lake with full hookups available. They were very accommodating and gracious hosts.
Views from Ralph’s.  Before we left for Portland and the morning after we got back.  There is a 45ft coach in Ralph’s barn and a lot more.
So this is the first leg of our travels to elsewhere. 
More to come.
Roger and Susan

Getting Ready to Go.

End of October, 2014.

When you think about being gone for a long time – for us this upcoming adventure will be about four months – you might think there is lots to think about.  There is. What clothes, what food and so on.  Actually it is much more about things to make life easier on the road and esier to be away from home.  Clothes aren’t too hard, something warm, some t-shirts, some pants, some shorts.  If we don’t have it we will get it. We take less food to start than we would for a long weekend.

House
We have folks watching over the house. Helpers to call if needed. The snow is being plowed. The mail is being forwarded. Monitors watch temperature and power in the house.  We have flooding detectors too.  These will alert us if there is water on the floor.  We have remote cameras watching that detect motion and send us emails when that happens.  We can remotely access those cameras for a look-see of our own.  Pretty much good to go on that front.

Coach
The coach has had all the needed and scheduled service done, systems checked and all is thumbs up there.

We put in a new refrigerator in September and gave that a test trip.  It works fine but we pulled it out and redid the exterior access hatch to improve insulation and reduce air infiltration.  I also rewired the circuit that powers the refrigerator so that the outlet that the refrigerator plugs into is now behind one of the kitchen drawers.  For whatever reason this refrigerator does not have an on/off switch. So I wired the outlet to a new switch on the front end of the kitchen cabinets and while I was at it added another 110v outlet next to the switch.  This lets us turn off the refrigerator without cutting power to that circuit.


Lighting
We have just about completed our conversion to all LED lighting.  The last to get done are the insides of the inside cabinets and closets.  Just a couple left to do now but this makes a big difference.  They are on switched 12 volt circuits and have sensors in the doors so when the door is open the light is on and when you close the door the light goes off.  It really makes it easier to see what is in there and find stuff.  
I have also been adding LED lighting in the basement storage bays. These are areas that needs all the light they can get.  I am even adding lights to interior equipment bays, the engine compartment and the generator bay.  All of this makes working with the coach easier.
DirecTV
We were able to get TV reception in many areas in the SE US but we are pretty sure that won’t be the case out west.  So after a lot of debate we decided to add a DirecTV dish and receiver. If you want this at home you just call and they provide everything and hook it all up.  If you want this on your motorhome you buy all the parts and get someone to install it and set it up at your expense or you do it yourself. I of course chose to do it myself.
The dish is mounted on the roof.  It folds down while traveling. There are control boxes and inside wiring as well.  When you deploy the dish from the storage position shown, it rises up, unfolds and starts rotating and tilting and automatically finds the correct position to receive data from three satellites simultaneously.  It takes about 5 minutes.  
There is a Genie DVR receiver in the coach.  It can record and watch five different programs at once.  I also added new over-the-air antenna signal strength displays and amplifiers and lighting.  We still have the Bose surround sound system, cd player and blu-ray player as well.  We also have about 40 blu-ray discs with us too. And way too many remote controls.  We can be well entertained when needed.

I added new drawers under the dinette for more organized longer term storage for supplies.

We also upgraded the coach’s wifi network and 4G access to the internet.
And then we unloaded everything that was in the coach, sorted, removed, added, organized, repacked and reloaded what was left.  We ended up with more space
So all of that done we winterized the coach, put it in the barn and started our departure countdown about 8 weeks away.
More next time.
Roger and Susan

Tettegouche State Park, North Shore, September 2014

Red Green’s Special Stuff

After our last trip ended with a bit of crunching I figured I better update progress. A repair estimate came from Xtreme Paint and Graphics which went to the insurance company, who went back to Xtreme to negotiate a bit. That’s where it sits. The insurabce company is contacting the witnesses to see what they have to say about the speeding, red light running, talking on her cell phone while smoking crazy person who ran into us.  

In the mean time we applied the Handy Man’s secret weapon over some metal mending plates, secured the headlights, put in a new turn signal bulb and we were good to go.
Chilling
The original LP gas refrigerator was still working fine but is is 13 years old.  These are the number one cause of fires in motorhomes. From what we see the newer ones are worse than the old ones. At this time in their lives they are commonly being replaced with ordinary residential refrigerators. We gave it some thought and when a very nice Samsung went on sale (for about 1/3 of the cost of a new LP gas refrigerator) we went for it. Got it delivered and set upmin the shop to make sure it worked well and got busy removing the old refrigerator and making adjustment to cabinets, electrical wiring, plumbing, vents and building a new platform for the refrigerator and a new skinny cabinet to go along side of it.

Out with the old one.
Recruited some Habitat friends and others to do the swap.  Thanks!

Right through the window. Mtaking the window out and replacing it took longer thn the old refrigerator out and new one in.

After a couple (Susan says four) test fits it is in and trimmed out. The new side cabinet is quite nice.

Sold the old refrigerator to a young couple for their cabin.  Good for them and us.
Tettegouche State Park.
On the way to Tettegouche we stopped for one night on the lake at Two Harbors, MN.  They have a nice city campground, Burlington Bay. Lots of sites right on the lake.  And you can walk into Two Harbors.

Late sun.
Tettegouche State Park is a great park for hiking.  It has lots of moderate to difficult triails that follow the Baptism River or lead into the backcountry. The definition of moderate has changed over the years.  Susan and I were first here in the early 80’s and the trail on the North side of the Baptism River to the High Falls was a rough, tree root and rocky covered trek up and down hills, through bogs and across several small streams.  Today the steep up and down climbs are wooden stairways and boardwalks get you through the boggy areas without getting your feet wet.  It is still a significant cardiovascular event.
It is also a great park for camping.  The main campground is about a mile from the lake and up the hill. There are lots of campsites for tents and RVs many with electric connections.  There are also 6 cart-in camp sites.  You park your car and haul your stuff into the camp site with a garden cart.  These vary from maybe a 50 yards to a half mile.  The up-the-hill campground is away from the highwy traffic and noise and light.  It is one of the darkest State Park campgrounds on the North Shore. A late night walk yields a spectacular stary night view. We saw some of the best views of the Milky Way in a long time. Even out in Hastings there is still a lot of extra light that makes seeing this difficult.

Late in the day.

There are also a dozen or so cart-in camp sites down by the lake.  They are also closer to Highway 61.
This used to be the Baptism River State Park and was much smaller. In 1910 a group of business men from Duluth bought 1000 acres around Tettegouche Lake to use as a hunting and recreation camp.  They built several log cabins and called it Tettegouche Camp.  They bought the land from a logging company based in the NE USA.  The logging company named the lake Tettegouche from Algonquin word for retreat. Several other lakes and rivers nearby have Algonquin names as well. The logging company had cut most of the trees but left many mature white pine around the lake.  These trees now are over 200 years old and stand well over 100 ft tall. The business men ran their Camp with a strong conservation ethic. They ran out of money in 1929 and sold the land to one of the business man who did not.  He ran it as an upscale camp open to the public adding a lodge and many more buildings. He sold it to another prominent Duluth family in 1971 who sold it to the Nature Conservancy who sold it to the State in 1979. I imagine there was a lot of manuevering for tax purposes in those 8 years.  By 1979 the original 1000 acres had been expanded to 3400 acres. This land along with Tettegouche Camp was merged ith the Baptism River land and the park was renamed Tettegouche State Park.
The park now has some of the most unique forest habitat anywhere long the North Shore. One of the most interesting is a significant stand of mature oak trees. Thee trees drop acorns and are a favorite food of the black bears in the area.  They have tagged bears that travel more than 20 miles for this fall treat. 
There is a major trailhead near the campground.  Most of these trails head into the interior of the park. The campground is on the south side of the Baptism River.  A trail from the campground leads upstream along the high bluff to the High Falls.
The High Falls is one of the highest falls in the state.  An old cable suspension bridge crosses the river above the falls.
They have added lots of stiffeners since the first time we were there. It still has a load limit of just a few backpackers and their gear at a time. It is part of the Superior Hiking Trail as it passes theough the park. 
Once cross you can continue upstream or follow the Superior Trail or head downstream on the top of the north edge of the river gorge.  Just a short way on there are steps down to the bottom of the High Falls.  About 120 steps!
Time for a rest.
Two years ago when we were here there was a Conservation Corp crew (part of Americorps that work with state Parks) (sort of like Peace Corps at home) working on these steps.  They were rebuilding the bottom 30 or so steps and the landing at the bottom. Much of this hard been damaged in the same storm where flood wters damaged Duluth and Jay Cooke State Park. They had to carry in all of the timbers and tools by hand.  Very hard work but the crew leader told me that there was hardly a better way to spend a summer.  We ran into them later in the campground.  They didn’t go off and stay in some place with beds, they stayed in the campground in tents!
Anothe mile or so down stream there was a branch trail running down to the base of Two Step Falls. Not two stps down but more than 210.  Another cardio experience.
This was a nice lower pool, probably great for a swim in mid summer. About 50° today.
210 steps back up and then down towards the lake and the new Visitors Center where we had a nice lunch.

And then with a light mist coming on we hiked back up the hill to the campground.  A hot chocolate helped make the cool uphill trek end comfortably.
The hike (walk) out to Shovel Point is not very far and the trail is pretty good.  I’d like to have the lumber contract for the DNR. They build a lot of stairways and boardwalks. On this pretty rugged terrain they make the trails more accessable. 
So its a couple mile round trip with lots of up and down.  This part of the North Shore as is most of it, is ancient lava flows. It is a particular type of lava which as it cools gets big vertical cracks. It ends up making cliff faces look like they are made of narrow vertical columns.  This is much different from the lava flows at Gooseberry State Park for example only 20 miles South East.
Shovel Point cliff face.
Wind, waves and mostly ice freezing in cracks make some spectacular rock formations. The trees on top give some idea how big this solitary rock outcrop is. 

Very high and very steep cliffs along the trail to Shovel Point.  Probably 200′ of more to the bottom. There were steel anchor points bolts to the rock at the cliff top. We wondered what they were for.  Someone else suggested they were for the bird banders who monitored Perigrine Falcon nests.  Sounded good to us.  Later we discovered that Tettegouche is one of two parks where they have rock climbing as a regular activity.  We found one other cliff location with the same anchors.

Finally all the way to the point and a small,bay to the north.

The mouth of the Baptism River. There were two more rock beaches to explre and hunt for agates.

Just up the shore from Tettegouche is George Crosby Manitou State Park. Although it crosses Highway 61 and goes down to the Lake there is no access from 61.  You have to go to Finland (Minnesota). It is a backpacking park, moderate to difficult on the State Park scale. But there is a lake only a short way from the parking area.  Several camp site are around the lake and there is a boardwalk trail all the way around. It is a bit swampy, probably keeps the erosion down.

The colors were starting to change.  On the way back we had a great lunch at “Our Place” in Finland. The back roads five or six miles away from the lake were beautiful.

We had a great time on the North Shore as we always do. Tettegouche has camping away from the highway and is loaded with great hiking.  Temperance River has many very nice camp sites overlooking the Lake or on the beach.  Good hiking and easy to get to beaches to explore.  Gooseberry is a long time favorite too.
Lots to like on the North Shore.
So we are home again.  We are finishing up some coach projects and a long list of get ready for winter stuff.  Winterizing the coach soon.
We will be heading for Texas and Arizona and New Mexico about January 7, 2015.
Lots more later.
Roger and Susan

Wwewe

Jay Cooke State Park, August 2014

We headed North again, this time to Jay Cooke State Park.  We were here last year after the really huge flood of 2012.  

2012 Flood 
The park and infrastructure inside the park suffered more than $150 million in damages. The famous Swinging Bridge was severly damaged. That’s it from above at the peak of the flood.  This is the fourth bridge here.  All have been damaged or destroyed by floods since the park was opened 99 years ago.

At the height of the flood following about 10″ of rain in the St Louis River watershed over a 24 hour period more than 350,000 cubic feet per second was flowing through this section.  The bridge span was under water.  The water level was almost 25′ above normal.  The normal water flow is only about 3,000 cu ft per second.

All 50 miles of hiking trails were damaged.  The highway into and through the park was washed away in three places including a bridge and more than 300 ft of the hill side.  This all happened because the Forbay Lake retaining wall failed and 3/4 of a billion gallons of water flooded down hill in less than 15 minutes.  The view from the new bridge is now one of the best in the park.

The bridge was being rebuilt last year when we were here and it is now done and the trails across the river are now open.

The Forbay canal and lake held water that feeds the largest hydroelectric plant in the state about three miles down stream from the Swinging Bridge.  In addition to the canal and lake damage the six generators in the hydro plant were flooded and damaged.  All are being rebuilt as is the canal and lake with new emergency spillway and flood gates.
A New Bridge
The Swinging Bridge is on the Register of Historic Sites so it has been rebuilt to as close as possibleto its  configuration when listed (plus engineering improvements). It doesn’t swing as much nor does itsqueak  and creak as much as the old one.  When it was reopened in late October, 2013, 4,000 people came to the park on the first weekend just to cross the bridge.  The first to cross was a family with young kids who had never been across the bridge.  Soon after a senior swinging bridge veteran crossed.  This was the fifth of these bridges he had crossed and was hoping this one would outlast him.
Good Hiking

Sort of foggy, humid and drizzly while we were there.  Rained at night but daytimes were OK.

This is a great place for hiking.  Lots of nice trails of varying challenges including for aome just getting over the bridge. Less swinging for this one was a good thing.

Most of the trails are also used for skiing in the winter so they are wide and smooth.  Some are narrow, rocky and full,of tree roots.  Our hiking poles help.

This was a tree growing on a tree with exposed roots intertwined.
Wednesday we hiked about 4-5 miles through the woods on the other side of the river.  There are amazing stands of white pine and giant Birch trees.  Some of the Birch were close to three ft in diameter. It is hard to estimate height but they had to be at least 60 ft tall.  There is a sharp ridge between the river and the area south of the park.  These trails followed along the ridge with very steep slopes on either side.
This area is all ancient seabed.  Most of the rock is shale, graywacke and tompsonite compressed over billions of years from the sea floor and heated by deep volcanic action that formed most of the Lake Superior basin and then folded and thrust upward.  It makes for some rugged terrain.

Thursday was an 80% chance of rain day. So we went on a 6-7 mile hike along the trails in the park that commect to the Munger Bike Trail and then into Carlton and back.  The Munger bike trail goes from Duluth south to Hinkley, maybe 90 miles.  Easy hiking on the paved trail except for some off trail excursions.
It never rained.  The Munger trail crosses the St Louis rIver on an old railroad bridge just down stream from the Highway 210 bridge and the Thompson Dam.  This part of the river is a favorite of whitewater kayakers.

They can kayak several miles down past the Swinging Bridge.

Dinner in Duluth
We met our friends Bob and Ani for supper at the Duluth Grill.  Very nice menu, very good food.  We also checked out a new cooking stuff store at Fitzgers and the new Duluth Trading Co store on Suerior St.  I bought something at the cooking store, nothing at Duluth Trading.  Guess where my priorities are.
Coach Work
We have a new Samsung French Door refrigerator for the coach.  It is in the shop.  Works well, quiet.  It will go in as soon as I can line up some lifters for the removal of the old refrig and loading of the new refrig.  It goes in through a window. Hoping for Labor Day week.
We have a January time slot scheduled at Xtreme Paint and Graphics in Nacogdoches, TX to get the original headlights replaced with high intensity LED lighting (a very popular modification).  They are also going to replace the original outside single step with a double step that is deeper and comes out further (safer). They are also going to add new LED lights in the rear (better visibility over the towed Jeep).  They do some amazing work on coaches.  A fabulous paint job would be nice too. Maybe someday.
Ouch!
The headlight redo means they are going to cut off and replace the left and right front corners.  Probably a good thing since just before we got home, a driver who was certainly speeding and probably ran a red light sideswiped the left front corner of the coach as we were making a right turn.  We heard it, a terrible sound, but never felt anything.  We probably weight 10 times what the offending vehicle did. Almost all of this was coming off anyway.  Nothing else on the side or front seems to have been damaged. 1/4″-3/8″ of fiberglass is pretty tough.
 
The good thing is that the entire right side of her speeding, red light running, probably cell phone and smoking distracted-while-being-driven SUV from front to back was trashed.  She tried to claim that I ran into her.  Not so according to the two eye witnesses who spoke to the police office.
A little of the handy man’s secret weapon, duck tape, and we will be OK till we get to TX.
Rats!
More later,
Roger and Susan

Duluth 7/27

Duluth

Well breakfast at the Delta Diner was pretty spectacular.  I had aMexican Omelet.  Susan had a blueberry and marscipone stuffed french toast.  We camped at a small county campground on Scenic Drive about a mile away.  Our site was at the bottom of a hill right at the beach on Delta Lake.  We went swimming in the lake.  Warm and weedy.
We drove over to Duluth.  We were going to meet our friends Bob and Ani for supper.  They were on a bike trip and got home late so that didn’t work out.  We stayed at the marina campground on Park Point.  We had to drive through Canal Park and across the lift bridge.

The campground was not much more than a parking lot but it was only two blocks to the bridge and the. Canal Park.

So we walked to the bridge.  Susan wasn’t too sure about crossing the bridge but she did!

For all the times we have been in Duluth, we had not spent any time on the other side of the ship canal. It is a different perspective.

There were two mounted police officers.  Big horses. 
We had a nice visit.  Went to Grandma’s in the morning to get a take out order of Cajun Chicken Fettucini. One order is plenty for the two of us for dinner when we got home.  An easy drive home getting home before rush hour on Monday.  
One day off on Tuesday and then five weekdays in a row at Habitat.  Now only two weeks till we are off again.
Busy thinking and planning long winter and summer 2015 trips.  
More later.
Roger and Susan